Nov 7, 2022 Addiction Idolatry Recovery Re:Generation Ecclesiastes 3:11 1 John 5:21 John 17:3 2 Peter 1:3a Philippians 2:4-11 Isaiah 44:6-22

Why is Recovery a Discipleship Issue?

Chris Rivers

Description

In this episode, Chris Rivers, Scott Mozingo, & Jim Taylor discuss the concepts of recovery, addiction, and idolatry and how these are tied to discipleship and our maturity as believers. They explore how re:gen can be a tool for confronting the nature of our sin, the sin of others, and the brokenness of the world in which we live. By entering into this process with a humble posture and an awareness of our need for God, we find connection with our Creator.

Recovery is defined as: 1) a return to a normal state of health, mind, or strength 2) the action or process of regaining possession or control of something stolen or lost. Based on this definition, every person is in recovery. We have all experienced loss. We have an innate sense that the world is not the way it should be. As believers, we recognize there is only one thing we have lost, and that is our relationship with the Creator. God created us to be in an unhindered relationship with him and each other. He placed eternity in our hearts, and he made a way for our relationship with him to be restored.
While God desires for us to find satisfaction in him and enjoy the fruits of a relationship with him, we are constantly striving for other things to replace him and fill that spot. In many cases, we have taken good things and centered our lives around them, making them ultimate things. Addiction, in this sense, is another word for idolatry. Most of the addictions in our context are not substance or chemical addictions but behavioral addictions. We are addicted to status, power, being right, victimhood, control, anger, productivity, our own way of thinking, etc.. We must understand and recognize that anything we orient our lives around besides God will destroy us. God, by nature, has no boundaries. When we allow things to function like God, they will take over every area of our lives.
Re:generation is a 12-step discipleship process oriented around life change and hope through the application of God’s Word. Re:gen gives us some categories and puts us through a process where we must confront the nature of our sin, the sins of others, and the brokenness of the world we live in. While it is a recovery tool, it cannot fix or save anybody. Only Jesus can save and heal people. In the work of recovery, the work is the goal. By submitting to a process and humbling ourselves, we are able to get connected to the Creator and allow him to draw us back to devotion to him.

Welcome back or to the grace church members podcast, I'm one of your host, Chris rivers. And in this episode I'm joined by my co-host. Scott Mozingo and Jim Taylor to focus on why recovery at Grace Church is a discipleship issue. Jim Taylor has a unique pastoral story and wears a couple hats at Grace Church in the area of care and recovery and our teaching team. And I got to say during this interview, I was completely speechless. I felt that is Scott and Jim discussed this topic.

I couldn't keep up as I took notes. So I'm very grateful. We are able to record this. So, like yourself, I could replay it in terms of this episode to help set the tone. I think it's important to mention that. We all have an innate sense that the world is not the way, it should be.

As Believers, we recognize, there is only one thing we have lost and that is our relationship with the Creator. God created us to be in an unhindered relationship with him and each other and he's placed eternity in our hearts and made a way for our relationship with him too. Stored as we navigate this interview, I think this idea will be a helpful lens for us to look through for this conversation. And if you're a first-time listener, we're excited that you've joined us. The goal of this resource is to address discipleship issues in the life of Grace Church and discuss how to be more fully devoted to God.

So be sure to check out our podcast page at Grace Church. S c. org /y discipleship. And on this page you can access a summary of this episode and additional resources to help. Help you move towards discipleship.

Okay, let's jump into this episode with Scott and Jim on. Why recovery is a discipleship issue? Jim Taylor, tell us a little bit about how long you been on staff. How you got here? And what are you doing now? Yeah, well started in 2006.

So coming up on 17 years on staff now and when I started was not a pastor was not qualified to be a pastor. I was an addict a liar. Maybe later terrified, to be honest with people and the church was much smaller than and desperate for somebody that knew how to work on computers and make videos.

So they agreed to pay me. And through that process of me coming on staff and getting connected to people, here, just had a couple of pastors care about me. Some of my sin got exposed. I was actually addicted to pornography and terrified to be honest about that. And and really over the course of about two and a half years, was really the first time that somebody saw me for who I really was. I was an addict.

I was liar as a manipulator. I was fearful and still loved me and trying to help me now. I think that could have happened earlier in my life but because I wasn't willing to be honest, nobody ever really had the opportunity So God was discipling me, you know, through my work and which is not why I took the job, right? He had other plans.

So really after I started to be honest and work through my own recovery, there was no we didn't have region then there was no 12-step process for that. Well I mean other than like essay or something but within the church just kind of one-on-one discipleship, right? No being exposed learning how to deal with. Sin, and a lot of it at the beginning, you know, in in Christianity, we talk a lot about the heart and behavior. And what's the relationship between those two things?

But, honestly, for where I was, I just had to start obeying and disciplining myself in some ways and then my heart became accessible. My heart wasn't really accessible because I think I was enslaved. So the word recovery. Is maybe a new word for some folks.

So I'm going to guess that 13 years ago. Recovery was probably not in your vocabulary. So how have you come to understand recovery and what do you want Grace Church members to really know when they say the word recovery? Yes, a few. If you look up the word recovery in Webster's what you're going to find is one definition of be like returning to a normal State, you know, of Health. Talking about the Mind or strength, it's used in the athletic world.

You know, if there's an injury going to go through recovery, we're going to rebuild get that shoulder working right? Again, or right, whatever, or regaining possession or control of something that's been lost or stolen, you know, as how that word is defined, which, you know, if we go by that definition, everybody's in recovery and the and I think that's true. And I, the reason I think that's true is because, as Hannity, we've all experienced loss, not just personal loss, like some of us have lost people, some of us have lost status or wealth, or sanity, or health is something, but but speaking, as Humanity as a whole, like Humanity has lost something.

And if we go back to the earliest chapters of scripture, you know, God created people to be in a nun, hindered relationship. Ship with himself and with each other you know we read in Genesis that Adam and Eve knew each other, there was no shame at that time. They would walk with God in the cool of the day and perfect Fellowship. There was no lying, there was no sin. There was no evil. That nothing was hindered.

The Earth would just obey them, you know if they wanted to cultivate it and produce something. So that's how God created Humanity to have control to Rule and have dominion and have perfect fellowship with him and with each other. And that's what we've lost. And I really think that everybody in that sense is in recovery and seeking recovery. We just all disagree on what's been lost and how to get it back. How do we think about recovery?

And then a word that people may be more familiar with which is redemption. Think about how this tool Works go together. Yeah, yeah. And I think here's what's, here's, what's fascinating about the story of scripture, right? God is redeeming, but if you read through Genesis, when he created the world, he says everything's good. That's the word, he uses good.

But if you read the end of the scriptures, like, if you go to Revelation, I don't think we're just returning to what was. I think it's an upgrade, right? It's Garden. Plus it's is moving from good to perfect, right? Where we know that sin and some form existed after God created the world. Before Adam and Eve sinned like Satan evil existed, right?

Because of his Rebellion but ultimately even that's going to be dealt with and what we see in Revelation is Heaven and Earth are united. So Redemption is you know part of that process. God is buying back right? He's redeeming bringing back but we're not just recovering what's been lost? Like it's even better. I think that's where Paul says in Romans 8, you know the suffering.

As of this present life are not even worthy to be compared with the glory that will be revealed in us later. And he talks about, you know eyes, he quotes Isaiah Eye Has Not Seen ear, has not heard, it hasn't even entered into the heart of man. The things that God has prepared for those that love him.

So to me, you know, we're all kind of on this process, we all are seeking what's been lost? And then ultimately, there's going to be a day coming. We're all that is not just restored in return, but so much more, so Jim you're talking about recovery. Wanting to get back something that's lost, but the world. Having different ideas on how to do that. Does that resonate with your own?

Your own story? Yeah, sure. And I think that's pretty common, right? We all have this innate sense. I mean, this is where Ecclesiastes 3 says, eternity is in our hearts. Like there's a there's just a piece built into every person that knows whether you're a Christian or not, it doesn't matter.

Everyone knows the World is not the way it should be we all have that sense right. And I think then life necessarily becomes this journey of well how do I make it? What it should be. We all have this longing. We have this idea. It's where we get our sense of morality and Justice.

It's why we have laws. It's like, hey, things are not good. We all know that. And how do we make them? Good. How we get back, right?

How do we recover? What's missing? What's What's the key to a lot? I mean, it's just true in every society. It's true in every culture. It's true in every person.

And so that's where I think everybody begins to kind of take their own recovery journey of you. See it all the time when kids are wounded by their parents, what do they do? They the pendulum swings and they go the opposite way, right? And they parent completely differently than their parents do right? Or you'll have a generation that sacrifices a lot and Tries to protect their children from a bunch of pain and so then you know that the pendulum swings the other way and it just it goes back and forth all the time.

He wrote people are always seeking how to get back what's been lost. So, for me, personally, just from some of the pain in my own life, I mean, I tried all kinds of different Avenues. I mean, I tried, you know, different drugs. I tried alcohol and tried, you know, illicit sex and then eventually landed on pornography, you know, and understanding things. About eight years later is because I could kind of maintain one facade, right? Look the way I wanted to look but also within a few moments, have something that felt like it made the world work, the way it should work like so I could be obeyed the way I wanted to be obeyed.

I could be served the way I wanted to be served. I could feel in charge, not out of control, whatever. I mean there's all that sense, right?

So if you think about it in that way, you know the world will tell. You look, if you get a An amount of money if you get a certain amount of power. If you achieve this, if you accomplish this, that's what will recover what's been lost?

Now, as Believers, we know, that's not true, right, right? Because what we've really lost is unhindered fellowship with the Creator with the god of the universe. And so, here's what, you know, if you read through the book of First, John book of First, John ends in chapter 5 verse 21, he says, little children, keep yourself away from it. Anything that might take God's place in your hearts.

And so here's here's the strange reality of all that is we all have some kind of place in our hearts, that that's where God fits. That's where he should be at the top. He should be at the center, that's what we really want, right?

But we have a tendency to fill it with anything and everything and so the strange irony of that is whatever you whatever you put in your life in that God place. That is the thing that loses all boundaries. It just grows completely wild and takes over right? Because that's what God has to do. Right God by his very nature is an infinite being which means he has no boundaries his no needs. There's no end to him that he's not contained, right, right.

So, if I take a finite thing and I put that in a place of that supposed to be for a Something infinite. Well, then that finite thing. Loses all boundaries and takes infinite characteristics. That's right. It takes over it grows.

And so, then somebody ends up doing things that they never thought they would do. They commit heinous crimes or sinful Acts or they lie and deceive and their whole life gets better. I mean, it's what you see with every addiction. Right, and it doesn't, I'm not just talk about drugs and alcohol, but people can be addicted to power, they can be addicted to victimhood. You know, they can be addicted to some kind of status. They, they can be addicted to their own rightness, their own way of thinking.

I mean, it can be, it can be anything, but, whatever that thing is, if it's not God, it will take over your life and it will grow out of control. And so, we just see that happen with everybody, and part of the beauty of the Gospel, is it, when everything gets out of whack like that, it brings restoration because it actually brings the thing that we were most craving are Deepest need, you know this is what Jesus says in John 17:3. He says this is eternal life that they know you father and the one whom you sent Jesus Christ.

That's eternal life. Eternal life is not something that starts after people put my body in the ground, Eternal Life Starts Now, right? It's a, it's an unhindered. I mean, the crazy reality is, everyone could have unhindered fellowship with their creator and live in harmony with other people that's available now.

That's the amazing truth of the Gospel is even though I am a sinner and I still sin because of the work of Jesus, I can actually have an unhindered, a completely unhindered relationship with the creator of the universe right now. Yeah, I think about second Peter 1 by his divine power, God has given us everything we need for life and godliness, not eternal life. Even in the way that we think about the future. Like we're in a right relationship with God, were Justified.

So we die. We go to heaven. That's that's not what he thought he might be talking about that, but he's talking about a lot more rice. Talking about exactly what you're talking about in the here. And now we can do that because of God's Great and precious promises, it goes on to say and his divine power within us.

And so what we seem to have lacking is a view that God wants something more for us than we can even imagine. Yeah, and it would be terrible. If God said this is my desire for you but then he didn't give us, the means to him. Push it right but he does give us the means to accomplish it by his Holy Spirit by his Word Fellowship of Believers.

And so it seems like the idea of recovering something in recognizing the impediments, the obstacle, the enemy that addiction can bring is part of us. Realizing how to get there. Is that fair? Yeah.

And so, you're asking us as a congregation To have a bigger View and expanded view of recovery that is, is maybe not just the traditional view, as you've already stated and then a more expanded view of addiction. Yeah. Which so, what's the, how does that work? As far as in your experience? If people are willing to go down this journey with you so now you get to teach and you get to lead people and we'll talk about specific ministry here in a minute.

But do you find that? That is a hard sell for folks. To identify themselves as addicts based on whatever, preconceived notion that they have, what that means. I think it's an obstacle and I mean, here's the thing, there's Pride on both sides.

Okay. Yeah, explain that. We're all prideful people, right? So, I may find myself in one season of life and I hear about the 12 steps or recovery or regen or whatever it is, and I go, oh, that's for those people, right? That's not for me. I'm not addicted to anything.

I might think that, which is a form of Pride, right? Right. But, Cuz this is addiction is just another term for what the Bible calls idolatry and that's what it is. That's a good, that's a good decision. And if you read the Old Testament, I mean that's what the Old Testament is about is just about God offering himself redeeming. A people calling them to himself saying you can be in a relationship with me and here's what that looks like and then them putting in false substitutes for that right?

And how it destroys them and he Out of love has to bring discipline on them, not because he's needy, like that's part of what it means to be God, he doesn't, he has no needs, right? It's not that he's insecure or needs a bunch of people to worship him in a firm him. Here's what I used to say, I used to say, God doesn't care about your happiness, he cares about your Holiness. That's what I used to sit heard that before. And and I realized over time, like, that is probably not true. Because how can you have an Enoch relationship with anyone who doesn't care about your happiness, that doesn't really work, right then, we're not really talking about a relationship.

We're talking about slaves, right? You know, so then I started saying, well, God cares, more about your Holiness and about your happiness, or I would say, God is not a dream killer, but he cares, more about your Holiness in about your dreams, and then I heard Matt Williams preach one time. And he said, hey, joy and happiness of the same things. I remember the same sermon. Yeah. And I was like, look up start over.

Okay. Yeah, that destroys that Logical statement, right? And so here's what I say now. God cares about your happiness, but he knows that your ultimate happiness or joy is impossible apart from Holiness.

So what did he do? He's been working for Millennia to make a way for Unholy people to be holy so that they can be in fellowship with him because he knows your happiness is tied to a relationship with him. So he's going to go to Great expense and sacrifice himself and Suffer in this world and walk the path that we have to walk to make that happen. Which is an incredible thought. And that's that's where, you know, we talk a lot about worship but Jesus never once said worship me but he did say follow me.

And so the amazing thing is we have this God who doesn't just sit up in heaven, aloof apart from our suffering, ready to press the Smite button. He actually did exactly the opposite, he did the unthinkable humbled himself. Became a man and walked the difficult path and actually navigated this broken World perfectly. Like we've never been able to do. I've never even come close to that not even a day, not even a day, not even an hour, right? He navigated this broken World perfectly and yet took all that Injustice.

Anyway, it's an amazing thought. So that somehow and I don't understand how this is the case but somehow you know you read passage like Ian's to which God has taken Jesus. He's given Jesus name above every other name, so that the name of Jesus every knee will bow. Every tongue will confess, you know, in heaven and on Earth and under the Earth to the glory of God, the father, right? He's given him a unique name. We read in Revelation chapter 19, there's a name written on him.

That no one knows except himself like he's exalted Jesus somehow, he is tied in this Grand, Cosmic scheme away to exalt his son and show love. To his son and glorify his son. And he is somehow tied that to our joy and happiness.

So the to have to go together and that's unbelievable to me that I am most satisfied and I have the most joy in the most happiness, when I'm the most connected to him. And then Jesus turns around and Promises to share all of his inheritance with us, right. Like treat us as brothers and sisters, I mean, it's just it's an honor. Unfathomable thing, right?

But I think when you begin to think on that scale and understand those kind of implications of the Gospel, then a term like addiction or recovery or whatever and like it just kills all Pride, right? Because it helps you see clearly that God has this desire for me to be satisfied. In him, he's going to be glorified. He is ultimately interested in my happiness as you stay, as you said, but I am Constantly pursuing other things to replace him and to fill that spot that's his alone to fill, right?

So that's what idolatry is exactly right? That that is idolatry and its basic form is our way of saying no I'm not going to accept you as Creator. I'm going to Dethrone you and I'm putting myself as God and I'm going to create something in my own image, which is what's so fascinating about the Old Testament scriptures, whenever you see Idols, you know, we Always kind of make fun. I mean Maybe not maybe we don't make fun but we it seems weird to me. I'm like, why would somebody bow down to a statue?

Right. Right. But that's what that is in its most basic form is. I'm going to create something in my likeness. Like God created me and his likeness and His Image, and he put people in his Temple. I mean, the scripture say, the Earth is a temple of the Lord.

So where do all the religions? Get that idea, that you go to a temple and there's an image that represents the god. Well, it comes. From God because that's what he did right. He created the Earth, he created people in His image, he put the people on the Earth so that if all creation wanted to know what is God look like, look at these two people, it's a representation, right? And we know that Jesus is the exact representation.

That's what Hebrews calls him. Right. But that idea that God put his image and his Temple and then when I have some idle in my life, that's exactly what I'm doing is I'm as I'm rejecting In that idea and I create something in my image and my likeness in human likeness and then I say you're my God, deliver me that's that's the irony of it. All is, we bound out to something that the scriptures say doesn't have eyes doesn't have a mind. Can't think can't do anything.

And so in all of that, I become more animalistic. I lose my Humanity because I'm worshipping something that is not alive, right, right. And but it's a Wait, for me to try to be the Creator, but I can't really create anything that's alive. I can only create dead things in my own image. And I think we're just thinking about pastoring, our church, where I see the struggle is, we want to have it both ways. We want the grace of Jesus, we understand we have a need, but yet we still want to fill our lives with these things and then put Jesus on top of it and ask him.

To bless it or at least, to be okay with it. So we have kind of all of our world worldliness And then we have Jesus. And so we are, we are synchronizing these things which has been a theme throughout throughout history.

Now, I'm not saying that these things are bad, so when I say worldliness when I mean is putting over identifying with those things, I mean we've seen pretty clear there are study of Ecclesiastes that God gives us all these things for us to enjoy. He just says, don't make them ultimate, don't make them God's worship, the God who gives them to you and be content in your circumstance, right? But we have a hard time being content.

So we All of these things and then we throw God on it top for good measure. That doesn't mean we don't really truly believe. That doesn't mean we don't have faith, but I just feel like we're confused. Yeah, we're cluttered right?

So then how does how would you agree with that? Is that would, so then how does the recovery process for us? You know, addicts of all different kinds, how do we begin to strip away those things and separate those things so that we can truly be satisfied? I'd in God alone as our Lord Savior King. How do we do that? Yeah, you know, it's a great question.

And I don't know that I have a great answer. I do think about Isaiah 44, you know, and Isaiah 44, he kind of gives this story. He says there's a pine tree and a cypress tree that are in the forest and God sends rain and it nurses, those trees, those trees grow up and then you have a story of somebody who goes and he cuts down the tree, right? And it says, with a portion of the tree, he cuts it up into firewood and he builds a fire, he bakes bread, he cooks meet, he warms himself and he says I'm filled, I'm satisfied, right?

And with another portion of the tree he gets out his tools and he carves out a figure in human likeness. He bows down to it and he warships it. And he says, rescue me. You're my God.

So here's where I think the church has gotten off track especially when we talk about recovery or not even recovery, just how to not be enslaved to sin, right? Just spiritual life, right? Spiritual life is you know, if you're talking about something like pornography Or a sexual addiction. Then it becomes like a lust management approach, you know, put a rubber band on your wrist. And every time you have a lustful thought, snap the rubber band, right? You know, like a like you're a dog and you're training yourself, right?

I'm not going to say there's no value to that. I'm just saying like that doesn't address the core issue and so what ends up happening with something like that in the lust management approach? Or like Colossians 2 would say all these rules about don't touch. Don't taste don't handle, you know, he goes. Those rules seem wise because they require strong spiritual devotion and highest self denial, but they provide no help in. Conquering a person's evil desires, so that kind of approach of don't don't, don't stay away, stay away, stay away.

It doesn't really fix the problem, right? And so we see in Isaiah 44, like there's a legitimate use of the tree and an illegitimate use of the tree. And so, the problem with that kind of approach is you basically Say to somebody. Hey Scott. I know that you'd love to live in this house and it's a beautiful house and it's and it's, it would be wonderful, right?

But you know what? I looked at the house and I looked out the back window. And you know what? I saw, I saw a tree actually, there's a bunch of trees and you know, what happens when you get around trees, right? You make Idols, so I'm sorry you can't live there. You can't enjoy all that goodness because it's too close to trees.

And since you're an idolater, you An idol. So we just got to stay away. Well, what's the problem with that? The problem with that is, how are you going to have firewood? Are you going to be warm? How are you going to cook bread?

Cook me be nourished. Be filled. Hmm, okay, because God has created a world and he's given people, five senses and part of the way that I know God and enjoy God Is by enjoying his creation. That's what we see in Genesis, right. I'm gonna go put my hands up to something. I'm going to work.

I'm going to cultivate and produce. It's part of how I glorify. By God, it's part of my relationship with him as I get to say, thank you. God, this is amazing. And then I get to present something to him, right?

And so you strip all that away, then you strip away the marrow of the relationship. And so what we've got to figure out how to do is, we have to figure out how to practice self-care and healthy, holy ways. So that we are enjoying the goodness, God gives us but Then not taking that and forming it into an idol and making it an ultimate thing that I bow down to and says, I can't be happy without this, so we talked about like lust management. Yeah, we couldn't talk about behavior modification, but it seems like there could be some tension between that.

And what you said earlier about, sometimes I just need to obey and then my motivation will follow how would you split the difference? They are between just obeying and trusting God. That's right, it's a great question and That is attention for sure, which is the scriptures are full of, but I think that's where Peter says. You're a slave to whatever you will be your slave to whatever controls you. And here's a great biblical paradoxes, we're slaves either way, right?

And so, Paul says right Romans, right? You're you're a slave to righteousness or you're a slave. Does it sound like you're not getting out of slavery? That's right. You're going to be bound in some way.

But are you going to be bound to an infinite being whose holy who has your best interest in mind? Are you going to be bound to something unhealthy and Unholy is going to destroy you? Geez, this talks about this idea to that, wherever your treasure is what is your heart to your heart follows.

And so when the Bible, you know, uses this word enslavement, and slave to sin, I think that is where some of the discipline, you know, part of what I had to do in my own story. And I read this from Every Man's Battle is, I had to starve my eyes for six weeks. Well, that's behavior modification, right, right.

But here's the thing. I was so enslaved. My heart was not accessible. I could not see clearly. I had to just discipline myself to go do something that I had no confidence would work. And then after six weeks, I remember coming to a service one, Sunday morning, and I just cried like a baby because all of a sudden I felt like my heart was free.

Now, that's a weird thing to say, but my wife was standing next to me and she was like, what is wrong with you? Like I don't know just I'm fine just talk about it but but at that point, then I had a certain level where my heart was accessible and my heart could then begin help lead my behavior, right? So I do think you can become so entrenched in your idolatry or you can become so dominated by your addiction that you're just living like an animal. And when that happens, somebody just has to come in and Intervene and there just has to be a like a, it's like a detox, right?

It's a period of time. Where were you get free. And all of a sudden, you can think again and you begin to move and then you can experience the goodness of God in relationship with him and with his community and enjoy those things where they don't just completely. If it's grown out of bounds, there has to be a shrinking. Right there, has to be a reorientation of all that, and a lot of that is just starts with Discipline, which is a big question that people have when they come into recovery. And we're like, hey, here's a book with a bunch of homework, right?

And they're thinking how can homework help me write with not drinking problem. Well, what they don't understand is the homework is just a tool to connect you to Jesus and anybody who spends a year connecting with Jesus every day. Well, what happens over time they find what they're really looking for and then their need for the alcohol or the sex or the drugs, or the anger or the Like it just it goes away. Yeah, I want to talk about how region helps the accessible heart, but let me share this illustration.

That was shared me years ago that I have always clung to. And it's about Passover, and it's basically about the Death, Angel, The Blood over the doorpost. And you think about the Jews that are living interspersed among the Egyptians. And you think about the, you know, the angel of death going into the Egyptian household, And there's idols on the Altar and there's no blood on the doorpost and there's death in the house and then they go to the next house, the Egyptian house and there's idols on the altar, there's no blood on the doorpost, there's death in the house and then they go to the Jewish household.

And what are they find? They find idols on the altar. But they find Blood on the doorpost. And so there's salvation. And and so just a picture of God's grace through obedience by faith, when you're all messed up and all whacked out and all, and looking for all of these God substitutes, there has to be a moment of Faith where we are saying, I don't really know how all this works, but I am making my heart accessible and I could imagine And the Salvation that occurred to that family, the revelation of God as Savior, that that began the transformation process.

And so I just that brings great comfort to me that I don't have to have my my mantle clear. You know. Like I don't have to clean myself up before the recovery process can starts, right? That's right. You don't clean up to take a bath. That's the way I heard, right?

So tell us about how This idea of region and this specific program. How does it connect with people who have are trying in the process of trying to make their heart accessible for change? Yeah, and that's work that God does, right? I mean that, that is where we have to say, hey, this is not something that we can control and go do and part of that is, you know, the great irony of scripture. I mean, the reason Jesus taught in Parables is to not only reveal truths but to conceal it from people who write out an arrogant.

And so it's the humble people that get in, right? The people who are humble enough to say I'm broken, I can't do it. I need something outside of myself, Jesus. I need you like, those are the people that get in, right, right? Which you just read the gospels and you get very clear on that fact. I mean, which is why Jesus challenge the religious leaders so much he's trying to help them see their need, right?

But those are the people ended up murdering him, right? Mean it was the good Christian people, Grace Church that killed Jesus, right? It was right. People had a Billy Graham crusade. That killed Jesus. I mean it was we're not talking about evil Roman pagans, right?

It was the religious people trying to do the right thing, it was us. And so that's where Grace is a threat to us, right? Because we all are self-righteous and we want to we want to work and earn our way but at some point this is Berk that God does and when I'm able to humble myself and go, I don't understand how this can help me. I don't understand how all this can work but I'm going I'm willing to humble myself and submit to a A process. I mean I just think that kind of humility is is an invitation of God into your life.

And I just, and that's the deal, whether it's in region or anything, any aspect of life that kind of humility to go. I can't handle it. Jesus, I need you. I'm just, I'm just going to do what these people tell me. These is where you brought me. I'm just, I'm just going to obey, right?

And I think, I mean, I've seen God meet people there in amazing ways, amazing. What because there's nothing special about region, right? It's like it's not some kind of like pixie dust magic formula. Or whatever Elixir, you know, drink this, and you're going to be cured. And I mean, that's the thing that people find like they come into region and we have a list of 120 common struggles, which you can pretty much find anything on there. And the more I look at it, the bigger modest growth.

Right, right, right. And so it's not about fixing the thing, but here's what I think God does in the universe. What? However, he's wired up the Universe, I think part of it, is he continually brings things into our life to show us, you can't handle it. You can handle it. This life is entirely too much.

We, you know, we pervert that passage in 1st Corinthians 10 and we and it gets paraphrase. God can't give you more than you can handle is very, that's crappy theology. Like I think I heard John Elmore at Watermark say that you know it's crap theology, right? Like this life is entirely more than you can handle, right? It's far too much and God brings those things into our lives to show us. We desperately need.

Mmm. And really being in a relationship. Ship with him. Like the work of recovery is the goal of recovery because it's in the work that you get connected to the creator of the universe. The work is the goal. Yes, the goal is not to fix the thing or two graduate.

Fix the thing, check it off, be able to graduate and become a mentor graduate and become a group leader like it's not a stepping stone. That's right. It's a journey in and of itself. That's right. Because in that journey is Are our meet God, right? And if I meet God, and I'm walking with him and I'm experiencing his healing and I'm learning to trust and I'm seeing him work.

What more do you need? Yeah, the goal, as we stated from the very beginning, as really what drives the entire desire to have these conversations is to draw us back to Devotion to God. Love God, love one. Another like that is always the goal and when we begin to substitute good things Ministry, Oh, things, even for those for that goal, we were missing the mark.

And so I love that Devotion to God, that's found through the work through the Journey, Through the recovery of our true, identity of our soul satisfaction, and God alone mean, that is that, that's what it's all about. That's what it's all about. That's what it's all about Jim. This has been great. I really appreciate your Clarity of thought your Insight and so for someone who's listening and they're like, yes I need this, I need Recovery, I'm an addict. What would you tell them specifically related to regen region?

Can't fix you. Twelve steps, can't heal. Anybody only Jesus heals people. So you need Jesus and the time is now just start Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, just show up starts process.

So what we need to do is get connected to your responsible. Pastor your campus? Pastor someone at the connect team with the Kinect team on your Campus, get the details, the where, and when we have a lot of people on the same journey and we want to bring you in to just really that Fellowship as we all seek greater Devotion to God and Devotion to others.

So Jim, thanks so much for being here, excited to see what God does through this. Thanks. Well, as we wrap up today's conversation, we want to thank you for joining us. We realized that listening to a podcast episode can be an individual experience which we believe is only, Talking through it and applying it to life. And this is something that we believe lots of people don't naturally seek out or have built into their lives.

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Access to any additional resources to help you, dive deeper into this subject. Be sure to check out our podcast page at Grace Church. S c. org /y discipleship and if we can help answer any questions about this episode or want us to discuss something in a future episode, email us at why discipleship at Grace, Church, SC dot-org. Thanks for joining us today. And we look forward to joining you in the next episode.

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